Elemental Forge
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So the biggest issue here is simply one of perception.
To @dwarf and @halfgiant the term artifact has a specific connotation. While I mostly align with that opinion, I am also struggling to define things around other power levels.
Who cares that a staff of magi is an artifact when you have “mortal” magic items that completely eclipse it?
Using item classifications from 1e, 2e, 3e, etc have little to do with a 10e game.
For the record, in your write up (in the attached word doc) you called it an artifact.
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@daermadm said in Elemental Forge:
To @dwarf and @halfgiant the term artifact has a specific connotation. While I mostly align with that opinion, I struggle to define things around other power levels.
The second edition 2E AD&D Book of Artifacts is most likely the origin of my understanding and perception on the topic of artifacts. From what i remember, the Forgotten Realms 3.5 (Magic of Faerun) had some information on artifacts, but it didn’t deviate much from the 2E common description.
This is my understanding; using Dwarf’s game as a frame of reference, it took me a good long while to understand the different echelons of power, at a macro level you have.
- Mortal
- Divine Categories (also reference Divine Ranks and Powers, prepare to be underwhelmed)
a. Choosen/Hero (technically they are different, but we have always simplified this and treated them the same)
b. Lesser
c. Intermediate
d. Greater - Clockmaker
- DM
Within each of these 4 macro levels of power, there are ranks or levels between each of these categories; a recent example of this is the fragment of the earthstone (had we acquired it) is more of a Clockmaker item than the same power as the full earthstone being a DM level item.
Where it gets a bit harry is over time you can usually figure out where it falls into those 4 categories and even the 4 subcategories under #2 divinity. Where it gets confusing at least for me still, is where it lies in the in-between space between Greater Divinity and Clockmaker (example) which is why I typically pepper @dwarf with scenario-based questions so that I can get a feel for the range of power and more importantly understand that it’s a bad idea to stick my newly acquired greater artifact in a Clockmaker nose hole.
Other odd exceptions would be Rasingra, and Elisha both children of God(s), to play them would be kind of ridiculous as they would have been born deities. So to play them we treat them as a sort of chosen, with a few oddities.
Lastly, you have classes like Ancients (are soon to), and they can make items of equal power assuming they have the right reagents to do so. Of course that essentially goes the same for the ultra-powerful wizards, clerics, and liches that make artifacts…they still require the components to do it. Slapping gold on the counter, and buying the materials isn’t going to cut it. Unless you know a daughter of Roland that deals in very high end alchemical materials … and that just opens up a whole world of questions that i will leave alone.
Now I will admit the cannon can be a bit frustrating as they seem to play with words that sort of contradicts themselves in places. And it doesn’t help when you read some of the Greater Artifacts, and you’re scratching your head why would anyone bother making this?
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technically, Chosen are still mortal - invested with some amount of extra juju from a deity.
Heroes are more of a pre-demigod status, as they’re the offspring of one god and one mortal (ie Hercules). those that survive long enough usually wind up promoted to demigod status when they’ve taken out enough of their fellows and/or divinely spawned monsters to accumulate the necessary amount of divine essence
the 4 tiers of divinity are Demi, Lesser, Intermediate and Greater. oftimes they either reproduce with other gods (spawning demigods and godlings) or pump enough of their essence into a Chosen to elevate it to Avatar status - where again, it eventually can ascend to Demigod status by acquiring enough divine essence)
Rasingra was born to the mortal Roland, then invested with enough divinity to make her effectively a Hero. Elisha’s mom initially refused the deific upgrade that Roland bestowed on Marac, Zarach and Damien - so she also was born in Hero status (which yes, we treat as Chosen+, because they’re effectively immortal - tho not as annoyingly so, that they’ll throw themselves into a meat grinder again and again like a certain insane Avatar turned Demigoddess (or her son) we all know
and, for the record, the only Daughters who truck in 99% of the high-end alchemical materials/reagents are those of the black-robed variety. ahem.
(( and you’d never believe the kind of vault door they’ve got on THAT fucking room of the network… it makes Gringotts in the potterverse look like a lego toy ))as to why someone would make a “Greater Artifact” that was almost as useless as tits on a boy, its because there are a lot of weenie DMs out there who think +3 swords are simply too powerful. we went to a conference full of them, once upon a Gencon…
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ok, so looking at this power scheme, the Elemental forge is most certainly not mortal level power to me.
FYI, I would also break out mortal magic as normal & epic (comparing to 3.5).
- Mortal
a. Normal
b. Epic - Divine
a. Demi
b. Lesser
c. Intermediate
d. Greater - Clockmaker
- DM
Based on your write up, which is an over all good description of IMO, the elemental forge would likely be Class 2A, Divine - Demi.
While it was built by mortals, it was blessed and infused with Divine essence.
- Mortal
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@daermadm said in Elemental Forge:
Based on your write up, which is an over all good description of IMO, the elemental forge would likely be Class 2A, Divine - Demi.
While it was built by mortals, it was blessed and infused with Divine essence.That tracks, or at least makes sense. Assuming 2A is powerful enough to withstand the tender ‘touch of a fragment’, let alone all 4 of them (eventually).
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Were does the obelisk land on the power scale? Lesser (2B)?
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@dwarf said in Elemental Forge:
and, for the record, the only Daughters who truck in 99% of the high-end alchemical materials/reagents are those of the black-robed variety. ahem.
(( and you’d never believe the kind of vault door they’ve got on THAT fucking room of the network… it makes Gringotts in the potterverse look like a lego toy ))I will reiterate - “opens up a whole world of questions that i will leave alone.”
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@halfgiant said in Elemental Forge:
@daermadm said in Elemental Forge:
Based on your write up, which is an over all good description of IMO, the elemental forge would likely be Class 2A, Divine - Demi.
While it was built by mortals, it was blessed and infused with Divine essence.That tracks, or at least makes sense. Assuming 2A is powerful enough to withstand the tender ‘touch of a fragment’, let alone all 4 of them (eventually).
It won’t be 2A when it is done being upgraded.
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@halfgiant said in Elemental Forge:
Were does the obelisk land on the power scale? Lesser (2B)?
the Primes are, yeah… the other obelisks on the network are more Demi in scale.
Arg’s original Prime (now that its been split into 3) is getting close to evolving into a Intermediate (when he’ll re-merge into 1 and then spawn off a bunch of Sub-Primes) which is his “final” stage.
(his design was purposefully built to never eclipse the Spellsword, the Greater God of Magic Items. also, much like Daren, the obelisk abhors the idea of worshippers and followers - so while his power level equates to deific stages, he’ll never have “true” divinity… though he’s worn the mantle briefly, out of necessity during weave outages and whatnot) -
@daermadm said in Elemental Forge:
Mortal
a. Normal
b. Epic
Divine
a. Demi
b. Lesser
c. Intermediate
d. Greater
Clockmaker
DMSomewhere in this mix, there are floating around the space between Mortal and Divine you have the heroes and chosen examples like Rasingra, and Elisha.
Additionally, there was the divine servants of the Gods such as Deva’s, Planetars, and Solars - can’t remember if there was another one in the mix there or not.
Damar was a Plaentar for a great number of years before being invited to the forge of eternities, and eventually tricked mmm maybe more duped when Rorex and Damien decided to abscond all the beer and head to the Forge of Eternities themselves making Damar a Greater Forge God of the Dwarves. And then there is ole Ralax, who happily serves Istus the Greater Goddess of Fate, while chauffering around a dagger of power and its plinth.
