Dwarf Edition: 10e Caster
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So speaking of fireball and 10 casting and figuring this all out… my acid missile example was a poor choice.
@dwarf and @halfgiant poke holes in this…
So let’s do it with Fireball.
3.5e fireball:
- 3rd level spell (requires 5th level caster)
- 1d6 fire damage per caster level (max 10d6)
- 20’ radius
- costs 3 spell points.
- 5d6 damage at first castable level
10e “fireball”:
- Energy Type: Elemental Fire - +1 to caster level
- Energy Manipulation: 20’ Blast - +2 to caster level
- Energy Strength: Base 1d4 per caster level - +0 to caster level
- 2nd level spell ( sum of mods divided by 2 rounded up)
- Requires 3th level caster (due to mod minimum)
- costs 2 spell points
- 3d4 damage at first castable level
But 10e offers variable Energy strengths.
Beginning at 5th level you could match the damage dice to the 3.5e fireball.- Energy Strength: Weak 1d6 per caster level - +1 to caster level
- 2nd level spell ( sum of mods divided by 2 rounded up)
- Requires 5th level caster to get access to Energy Strength Weak
- costs 2 spell points
- 5d6 damage at first castable level
Or you could continue to use the d4, but the spell point cost is the same, so why? Some spells this may not be the same depending on the Energy Type and Energy Manipulation in use.
On to 7th level! The 10e caster gains access to the next Energy Strength for Elemental - Fire.
- Energy Strength: Light 1d8 per caster level - +2 to caster level
- 3rd level spell ( sum of mods divided by 2 rounded up)
- Requires 7th level caster to get access to Energy Strength Light
- costs 3 spell points
- 7d8 damage at first castable level
But the 3.5e caster is stuck with 7d6 for the same 3 spell points
You can continue to use the d4 or the d6 for a 2 spell point cost if desired, or because spell point conservation is needed, or because you are stacking other mods (from feats) and need to keep the spell level to your current max caster level.
At 10th level the 3.5e reaches the cap of 10d6 but the 10e caster is at 10.8 for the same 3 spell point cost.
At 11th level the 10e caster gains the next Energy Type: Minor
- Energy Strength: Minor 1d10 per caster level - +3 to caster level
- 3rd level spell ( sum of mods divided by 2 rounded up)
- Requires 11th level caster to get access to Energy Strength Minor
- costs 3 spell points
- 11d10 damage at first castable level
But the 3.5e caster is stuck with 10d6 for the same 3 spell points
At 18th level the 10e caster gains the Energy Type: Average
- Energy Strength: Average 1d12 per caster level - +5 to caster level
- 4th level spell ( sum of mods divided by 2 rounded up)
- Requires 18th level caster to get access to Energy Strength Average
- costs 4 spell points
- 18d12 damage at first castable level
But the 3.5e caster is stuck with 10d6 for the only 1 spell point less
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@dwarf check out this damage dice progession chart from Pathfinder.
Maybe a way to flush out the Energy Strength Level chart.
Source: https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t3f
When the damage dealt by a creature’s weapons or natural attacks changes due to a change in its size (or the size of its weapon), use the following rules to determine the new damage.
• If the size increases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and increase the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Small or lower (or is treated as Small or lower) or the initial damage is 1d6 or less, instead increase the damage by one step.
• If the size decreases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and decrease the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Medium or lower (or is treated as Medium or lower) or the initial damage is 1d8 or less, instead decrease the damage by one step.
• If the exact number of original dice is not found on this chart, apply the following before adjusting the damage dice. If the damage is a number of d6, find the next lowest number of d6 on the chart and use that number of d8 as the original damage value (for example, 10d6 would instead be treated as 8d8). If the damage is a number of d8, find the next highest number of d8 on the chart and use that number of d6 as the original damage value (for example, 5d8 would instead be treated as 6d6). Once you have the new damage value, adjust by the number of steps noted above.
• If the die type is not referenced on this chart, apply the following rules before adjusting the damage dice. 2d4 counts as 1d8 on the chart, 3d4 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d4. 1d12 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d12.
• Finally, 2d10 increases to 4d8 and decreases to 2d8, regardless of the initial size, and so on for higher numbers of d10.
Damage Dice Progression Chart
1
1d2
1d3
1d4
1d6
1d8
1d10
2d6
2d8
3d6
3d8
4d6
4d8
6d6
6d8
8d6
8d8
12d6
12d8
16d6I merged it into the 10e sheet data, simply starting at 1d4. Trimmed the 1, 1d2, and 1d3 from the top to make it line up. The 16d6 would be 16 if you come up with one
Level Adjustment Name Dwarf Damage Die Revised Damage Die -1 Cantrip 1d3 0 Base 1d4 1d4 1 Weak 1d6 1d6 2 Light 1d8 1d8 3 Minor 1d10 1d10 4 Substnd 2d6 5 Average 1d12 2d8 6 Overchrgd 3d6 7 Glowing 3d8 8 Major 4d6 9 Strong 4d8 10 Severe 6d6 11 Radiant 6d8 12 Strobing 8d6 13 Blinding 8d8 14 Molten 12d6 15 Plasmic 12d8 -
Now seeing that line up and looking at Cantrips. Because I know how much @halfgiant LOVES to play level 1.
Let’s add another Energy Strength of Cantrip with a -1 level mod and a die of 1d3 (or 1d2).
This would apply to all Energy types that have a Base (1d4) capable casting.
So the level 1 types can be cast at level 0 effective mod. This gives you magic missile at first level for 1d3 for 1 spell point. Or you can have a 1d3 magic arrow that you have to roll to hit for free (at will).Edit: added to above table.
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@dwarf said in Dwarf Edition: 10e Caster:
- peers over at the cloud’s modified 10e fighter *
yeah, he left 12th lvl at d10’s… so the fighter is whacking people for 4d10 energy spirit damage, which should wind up to an extra 8d10 - 16d10 depending on how many swings he’s gettin at that point… the balancing mechanic was that the fighter energy spirit damage per hit roughly equated to half a rogues backstab (who typically only gets ONE backstab in a round) and his total energy spirit damage was about the same a caster could generate, tho across a larger swath of opponents (as it was limited by the power pool)
I have no idea how to apply these new damages ideas to the 10 Fighter and Theif damage yet… still thinking…
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@daermadm said in Dwarf Edition: 10e Caster:
I merged it into the 10e sheet data, simply starting at 1d4. Trimmed the 1, 1d2, and 1d3 from the top to make it line up. The 16d6 would be 16 if you come up with one
'cuz a 2400d8 plasmic fireball isn’t hot enuff, you want Saz cranking off 3200d6 ones instead ??
(( oddly enuff, the max damage on both is identical ? ))now we just have to wait for bob to shortcut around the level cap - because if your stacking logic holds for costs, a +15 CL plasmic 10e fireball is what - a 9th lvl spell equivalent ?
seriously tho - i’d considered throwing more dice upgrades in there… reason it didn’t work was there was so many metamagic fcheats that give you a +1 or +2 or +50% on your damage dice that shit started to get a little ridiculously large.
- cough cough Bob cough *
leaving it capped at d12’s kept the crazy to a minimum
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@dwarf said in Dwarf Edition: 10e Caster:
@daermadm said in Dwarf Edition: 10e Caster:
I merged it into the 10e sheet data, simply starting at 1d4. Trimmed the 1, 1d2, and 1d3 from the top to make it line up. The 16d6 would be 16 if you come up with one
'cuz a 2400d8 plasmic fireball isn’t hot enuff, you want Saz cranking off 3200d6 ones instead ??
(( oddly enuff, the max damage on both is identical ? ))now we just have to wait for bob to shortcut around the level cap - because if your stacking logic holds for costs, a +15 CL plasmic 10e fireball is what - a 9th lvl spell equivalent ?
seriously tho - i’d considered throwing more dice upgrades in there… reason it didn’t work was there was so many metamagic fcheats that give you a +1 or +2 or +50% on your damage dice that shit started to get a little ridiculously large.
- cough cough Bob cough *
leaving it capped at d12’s kept the crazy to a minimum
Plasmic Elemental Fire has a 200th level minimum requirement
https://obelisk.daerma.com/topic/174/energy-types-by-caster-level/4but the spell level would be 9th, yes.
Elemental Fire +1
Blast 20’ radius +2
Plasmic +15Total caster level +18
Divided by 2 = Spell level 9
Costing 9 spell points.
doing 200 x 12d8 = 2400d8 = 2400 - 19200 damage
Maximized is a +4 mod so ups the spell point cost to 13 spell points for 19200 damage. -
yeah, i think i’ll keep mine locked at d12
daren’s enough of a handful tossing around magnified and amped 54d12 balls of hatefucking as it is…but by all means, jiggle your 10e however thou wishest ! i’ll just sit over here and watch for his Smirk of Doom…
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@dwarf said in Dwarf Edition: 10e Caster:
yeah, i think i’ll keep mine locked at d12
daren’s enough of a handful tossing around magnified and amped 54d12 balls of hatefucking as it is…but by all means, jiggle your 10e however thou wishest ! i’ll just sit over here and watch for his Smirk of Doom…
Because Curious… Yup dead cat incoming…
54d12 means level 54?
That opens the Strobing Energy Strength, which would be 8d6 base (+6 caster level mod) so 54*8d6 = 432d6 = 432 - 2592…
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So yeah, I’ll work on those dice more, but I do think there should be more. Otherwise, what is the point of the Energy Strength beyond “Average”?
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yeah, he’s somewhere around there i think… then he spins UP and gets magnified or megafied or OMEGAfied and everything just dies for miles around…
as far as they “why” - those were descriptors i was planning to use later, nothing more. kinda how a normal joe-blow mage would see an archmages fireball burn brighter and hotter, elminsters even more so and daren’s even more than that… was figuring on each strength introducing extra effects as my playtest moved along (so at one point a fireball would start combusting stone, melting metal, etc) and higher-power magic bolts and whatnot would just power on THRU barriers/armor/people…
never got past development (obviously) because the playtest petered out… i’ll try 'n see if i can locate dwarf’s original notes on 'em if you’d like
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@dwarf said in Dwarf Edition: 10e Caster:
was figuring on each strength introducing extra effects as my playtest moved along (so at one point a fireball would start combusting stone, melting metal, etc) and higher-power magic bolts and whatnot would just power on THRU barriers/armor/people…
This is interesting. And would work in conjunction with spanning the dice out and up a bit…
Level Adjustment Name Dwarf Damage Die Revised Damage Die -1 Cantrip 1d3 0 Base 1d4 1d4 1 Weak 1d6 1d6 2 Light 1d8 1d8 3 Minor 1d10 1d10 4 Substnd Effect 2d6 5 Average 1d12 2d8 6 Overchrgd Effect 3d6 7 Glowing 2d6 3d8 8 Major Effect 4d6 9 Strong 2d8 4d8 10 Severe etc 6d6 11 Radiant etc 6d8 12 Strobing etc 8d6 13 Blinding etc 8d8 14 Molten etc 12d6 15 Plasmic etc 12d8 -
@dwarf I would love to hear more about what you were thinking for effects. I want to cement this table before our next game.
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you mean i gotta get Drunk Dwarf to cough up files for me again ? * sigh *
wunner if they have any more of that strawberry beer in yet ? -
So in the new 10E Caster system, how would this Druid spell translate to energy / effect type?
Nature’s Avatar
https://naggaroth.daerma.com/dndtools/spells/complete-divine--56/natures-avatar--706/index.html -
Energy : Primal
Manipulation : Imbuetho, like we played at CabinCon, if you’re trying to generate a specific spell effect there are several “paths” you can use… like admixing Blood and Kinetic with a sprinkle of temporal if you wanna break down the individual parts…
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@dwarf said in Dwarf Edition: 10e Caster:
Energy : Primal
Manipulation : Imbuetho, like we played at CabinCon, if you’re trying to generate a specific spell effect there are several “paths” you can use… like admixing Blood and Kinetic with a sprinkle of temporal if you wanna break down the individual parts…
Also I like the idea of playing with the effect based on the damage die you crank in. Some spells will be easier to tweak than others.
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Lets continue down this line of thinking.
in 3.5 we have Nature’s Avatar:
Evocation
Level: Druid 9,
Components: V, S, DF,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Animal touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)You infuse the subject with the spirit of nature. The affected creature gains a +10 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls and 1d8 temporary hit points per caster level, plus the effects of haste.
In the New 10E system if we wanted to replicate the above 3.5 spell
Energy: Primal (+1) + Temporal (+9) for the haste effect, or is that all Primal?
Manipulation: Imbue (+2)
Strength: Would this be Minor (+3) for the +10? or would the effect remain variable 1d10. And would the affect translate to both the to hit, and damage? or just damage?Also how would durations translate?
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@halfgiant said in Dwarf Edition: 10e Caster:
Strength: Would this be Minor (+3) for the +10? or would the effect remain variable 1d10.
This would be something that varies based on the desire of the caster.
Not sure on +10 being minor or higher, but the choice to use a variable or fixed bonus would be up tot he caster. A variable bonus would be slightly less power cost than a fixed bonus equal to the max of the variable one.
So if a variable morale bonus of 1d10 would be a +3 Minor, then fixed +10 morale bonus would be a +4 Substandard.
Duration should also cost something if it is beyond a round or two IMO, but that is a harder judgement call.
Based on the above assumptions, let’s look at the calculation we have so far for comparison.
The original spell is level 9. So that means a minimum caster level of 17.
Energy Type 1: Primal +1 (Type of fixed bonus)
Energy Type 2: Temporal +9 (Haste)
Energy Type 3: Blood +1 (Temporary HP)
Energy Manipulation: Imbue +2 (Imbue)
Energy Strength: Substandard +4 (+10 fixed bonus)Total: 1+9+1+2+4=17 = Spell Level 9
Possibly add a +1 due to longer duration? But that would just rise it to caster level 18 which is still level 9.
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Taking the same logic to the Haste spell doens’t match as well.
https://naggaroth.daerma.com/dndtools/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/haste--2823/index.htmlEnergy Type: Temporal +9
Energy Manipulation: Imbue +2
Energy Strength: Base +1Total: Caster Level 12 = Spell Level 6
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Types of Duration adders
Instant
1 round
1 minute
10 minutes
1 hour
1 day/24 hours
Concentration-Based
PermanentYou could also drop a power adder for changing the duration from a fixed 1 round, to something that scales to level - i.e. 1 round/level or 1 min/level.
You also have examples of Special or Varies durations, not sure those are applicable here.
