Cubes
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just FYI - in the old 2e game, empty cubes were unleveled… you could take a freshly emptied orange out of your wand of magic missiles and jack it into a staff of power to start absorbing spells and have it wind up a black cube (or whatever the hell color it was back then)
Correct and I am not changing that.
then shouldn’t your 3rd column heading in the above table be Cost Full ???
amusingly enuff, i started building a pricing comparison spreadsheet when i was figuring SOMETHING out one day - looking at the pricing difference between various 1e/2e/old dwarfE/3e stuff. i think your price per charge is LEAGUES over what std 3e is - ie the wand of cure light retails at 750 gp for a full 50 charge stick of 1st lvl spells, for example.
should prolly make it run closer to 2x the NPC spellcasting costs per spell level, which oddly enough seems to align closely with the per charge cost of staves for some unknown WotC reason…
NPC cast cost is spell lvl x caster lvl x 10…
scrolls are spell lvl x caster lvl x 12.5 to make and x2 for retail
potions are spell lvl x caster lvl x 25 to make and x2 for retail
wands are spell lvl x caster lvl x 375 (for 50 charges) to make and x2 for retail
staffs are spell lvl x caster lvl x 500 (for 50 charges) to make and x2 for retailso, in comparison -
a staff of big ohm retails at 66k (6111000) which breaks down to 1320 per charge… your grid wasn’t far off at 1100 per charge. npc is at 660 (so 2x would match)
a wand of cure light (little ohm) retails at 750 (11750) which breaks down to 15 per charge, which you have at 100 per. npc is at 10 (so 2x is a lil’ over at 20)
a wand of fireballs (std 6 dice) retails at 13.5k (36750) which equates out to 270 per charge vs your 600 per. npc is at 180 (so 2x is a lil over at 360)thats my 2 bits on it, anyhow
thoughts ? -
i think your price per charge is LEAGUES over what std 3e is - ie the wand of cure light retails at 750 gp for a full 50 charge stick of 1st lvl spells, for example.
Last i recall was those prices were from something you either gave me or we talked about. I didn’t pull them out of my ass. I do that often enough and do not deny it.
I’ll have to go into the numbers again.
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Remind me again
How many charges per cube, thought it was 20?
Is this how it was discussed?
Wands = 2 cubes?
Rods = 3 cubes?
Staffs = 4 cubes? -
@halfgiant said in Cubes:
Remind me again
How many charges per cube, thought it was 20?
10 per cube. Always has been.
Is this how it was discussed?
Wands = 2 cubes?
Rods = 3 cubes?
Staffs = 4 cubes?Something like that.
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should prolly make it run closer to 2x the NPC spellcasting costs per spell level, which oddly enough seems to align closely with the per charge cost of staves for some unknown WotC reason…
NPC cast cost is spell lvl x caster lvl x 10…
scrolls are spell lvl x caster lvl x 12.5 to make and x2 for retail
potions are spell lvl x caster lvl x 25 to make and x2 for retail
wands are spell lvl x caster lvl x 375 (for 50 charges) to make and x2 for retail
staffs are spell lvl x caster lvl x 500 (for 50 charges) to make and x2 for retailSo, using the Wand base cost for the base cost to make a cube, we get level 1 spell * level 1 caster level * 375 / 5 (wands make 5 cubes) = 75gp creation cost.
Retail is 2x creation = 2 x 75 = 150gpI left the cube cost for each level in there for reference . I agree that cubes themselves should be unleveled.
To fill a cube reqiures Dweomerflow (Wizard 4th) to be cast.
This costs 4 (spell level) * 9 (caster level) * 10 = 280Then you hace to pay a caster to cast and Nth level spell 10 times to fill the charges.
This is Spell Level * Caster Level * 10 * 10
1st level * 1st level * 10 = 10 * 10 castings = 100
2nd level * 3rd level * 10 = 60 * 10 castings = 600
etc.Color Spell Level Caster Level Base Cost Creation Cost Retail Cost Empty Cast Dweomerflow Retail cost Per Charge Full Cube Price Orange 1 1 375 75 150 280 10 530 Brown 2 3 375 450 150 280 60 1,030 Yellow 3 5 375 1,125 150 280 150 1,930 Blue 4 7 375 2,100 150 280 280 3,230 Pink 5 9 375 3,375 150 280 450 4,930 Violet 6 11 375 4,950 150 280 660 7,030 Maroon 7 13 375 6,825 150 280 910 9,530 Green 8 15 375 9,000 150 280 1,200 12,430 Beige 9 17 375 11,475 150 280 1,530 15,730 Steel 10 19 375 14,250 150 280 1,900 19,430 Rust 11 21 375 17,325 150 280 2,310 23,530 Turquoise 12 23 375 20,700 150 280 2,760 28,030 Gold 13 25 375 24,375 150 280 3,250 32,930 Bronze 14 27 375 28,350 150 280 3,780 38,230 Silver 15 29 375 32,625 150 280 4,350 43,930 Brass 16 31 375 37,200 150 280 4,960 50,030 Copper 17 33 375 42,075 150 280 5,610 56,530 Platinum 18 35 375 47,250 150 280 6,300 63,430 White 19 37 375 52,725 150 280 7,030 70,730 Blood Red 20 39 375 58,500 150 280 7,800 78,430 -
perfect !!
now, how do we want to differentiate when a 10th lvl caster makes a 3rd lvl cube for his wand 'o fireballs ? so he can honk off 10d6 blasts instead of 5d6 ones ?
add a descriptor (minor) ? let the wand just convert a pink cube on the fly ? make a bridging device to hook a pink to the yellow ?i’m of a mind (at this moment) to just let the wand hold the ‘formula’ and channel whatever cube you load it with into fireballs of whatever strength… load an orange cube, get a 1d6 fireball. load a rust, get a 20d6 and hope the wand doesn’t making the high-pitched phaser overload noise. slot in a blood red and run like hell because it WILL make the overload noise
thoughts ?
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perfect !!
now, how do we want to differentiate when a 10th lvl caster makes a 3rd lvl cube for his wand 'o fireballs ? so he can honk off 10d6 blasts instead of 5d6 ones ?
add a descriptor (minor) ? let the wand just convert a pink cube on the fly ? make a bridging device to hook a pink to the yellow ?i’m of a mind (at this moment) to just let the wand hold the ‘formula’ and channel whatever cube you load it with into fireballs of whatever strength… load an orange cube, get a 1d6 fireball. load a rust, get a 20d6 and hope the wand doesn’t making the high-pitched phaser overload noise. slot in a blood red and run like hell because it WILL make the overload noise
thoughts ?
I was thinking about a “max” level for wands when made. A standard wand is made at caster level and uses the appropriate cube.
In the case of a fireball wand that would be yellow and each charge is 5d6.
Now when Kargin makes his fireball wand of doom he jacks his caster level up to 9 (5th level spell) for creation that is a 9d6 fireball per charge with a pink cube.
With the max level logic, he could use a yellow cube for a 5d6 fireball or a blue cube for a 7d6.
I see no reason not to let it get weaker. 3d6 on brown and 1d6 on orange.
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wouldn’t the fireball wand o’ doom be a 9d8 then ?
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Double checking, I’m tracking…to make sure.
Example (Wand) 1 Energy Type Elemental Fire +1 Effect Blast 20’ radius +2 Adj Major 4d8 +8 4d8 Caster Level 11 4d8 44d8 Spell Level 6 Power Source Violet Cubes Cost Base Spell Level Caster Level Charges 1 Empty Cube 4950 75 6 11 - Cost to Fill 6600 10 6 11 10 Wand Cost Base Spell Level Caster Level Base Price 49500 750 6 11 Craft Cost 24750 Gold XP Cost 1980 XP Time to Craft 24.75 Days Example (Wand) 2 Energy Type Explosive +7 Effect Blast 20’ radius +2 Adj Average 2d8 +5 Caster Level 14 2d8 28d8 Spell Level 7 Power Source Maroon Cubes Cost Base Spell Level Caster Level Charges 1 Empty Cube 7350 75 7 14 - Cost to Fill 9800 10 7 14 10 Wand Cost Base Spell Level Caster Level Base Price 73500 750 7 14 Craft Cost 36750 Gold XP Cost 2940 XP Time to Craft 36.75 Days Notes Base Price = 750 × level of spell × level of caster (or otherwise market price) Craft Cost = 375 x level of spells x level of caster XP Cost = 1/25 * Base Proce Time to Craft = 1 day/1000 gp -
@halfgiant said in Cubes:
Double checking, I’m tracking…to make sure.
oh, we know you are tracking…
I’ll have to review it in the morning. this looks horrid on my phone.
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@halfgiant Creation cost for an empty cube is 75gp. That was derived form the fact that wands are created with 50 charges and 375gp / 5 = 75.
I have not yet decided what to do about charged item creation and cubes. Originally, in the old 2e system, when you made a wand you got 5 full cubes also. But cubes are more effective than disposable wands.
The other values in the Creation Cost column were listed as part of the discussion on if cubes themselves were leveled. We have settled that they are not.
But I see my math was wrong because I wrote that base don @dwarf’s post that wands were Caster Level x Spell Level x 375 gp, but I just checked the PH and it shows they are 750. So let me rework things.
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And the DMG has the 375 number… WTF WOTC…
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Alright, so that 750 is market price. Thanks WOTC for not using clear terms all over…
So the original table stands as it was. But let’s think about the entire picture. Crafting a wand and cubes.
Wand Options:
- Craft a wand and get 5 fully charged cubes.
- This option needs to jack the cost of creation by some factor thanks to the rechargability of cubes.
- Craft a wand and get 2 fully charged cubes.
- I can easily seeing this as being an even deal. You only get 20 charges, but with a simple spell and some time, any caster can refill the cubes…
- Craft a wand and get no cubes.
- This would definitely lower the cost of the wand creation I am leaning towards 50%
I think the second two options go together. Giving the crafter a choice during creation.
If we go with those, then I would say wand creation cost would be thus.
Spell Level Caster Level Wand +2 Cube Retail Cost Wand + 0 Cube Retail Cost Uses Cube Color Wand Retail Base Cost Wand + 2 Cube Creation Cost Wand +0 Cube Creation Cost 1 1 750 375 Orange 750 375 187.50 2 3 4,500 2,250 Brown 750 2,250 1,125.00 3 5 11,250 5,625 Yellow 750 5,625 2,812.50 4 7 21,000 10,500 Blue 750 10,500 5,250.00 5 9 33,750 16,875 Pink 750 16,875 8,437.50 6 11 49,500 24,750 Violet 750 24,750 12,375.00 7 13 68,250 34,125 Maroon 750 34,125 17,062.50 8 15 90,000 45,000 Green 750 45,000 22,500.00 9 17 114,750 57,375 Beige 750 57,375 28,687.50 10 19 142,500 71,250 Steel 750 71,250 35,625.00 11 21 173,250 86,625 Rust 750 86,625 43,312.50 12 23 207,000 103,500 Turquoise 750 103,500 51,750.00 13 25 243,750 121,875 Gold 750 121,875 60,937.50 14 27 283,500 141,750 Bronze 750 141,750 70,875.00 15 29 326,250 163,125 Silver 750 163,125 81,562.50 16 31 372,000 186,000 Brass 750 186,000 93,000.00 17 33 420,750 210,375 Copper 750 210,375 105,187.50 18 35 472,500 236,250 Platinum 750 236,250 118,125.00 19 37 527,250 263,625 White 750 263,625 131,812.50 20 39 585,000 292,500 Blood Red 750 292,500 146,250.00 And then Cube Creation and Recharging would be thus.
Note: I think we should just roll Empty Cube Base to 100gpSpell Level Caster Level Cube Color Empty Cube Base Creation Cost Retail NPC Cost Per Charge Retail NPC Cost Full Cube Retail Recharge Cost Spell Points per Charge 1 1 Orange 93.75 10 100 380 1 2 3 Brown 93.75 60 1,030 1,310 2 3 5 Yellow 93.75 150 1,930 2,210 3 4 7 Blue 93.75 280 3,230 3,510 4 5 9 Pink 93.75 450 4,930 5,210 5 6 11 Violet 93.75 660 7,030 7,310 6 7 13 Maroon 93.75 910 9,530 9,810 7 8 15 Green 93.75 1,200 12,430 12,710 8 9 17 Beige 93.75 1,530 15,730 16,010 9 10 19 Steel 93.75 1,900 19,430 19,710 10 11 21 Rust 93.75 2,310 23,530 23,810 11 12 23 Turquoise 93.75 2,760 28,030 28,310 12 13 25 Gold 93.75 3,250 32,930 33,210 13 14 27 Bronze 93.75 3,780 38,230 38,510 14 15 29 Silver 93.75 4,350 43,930 44,210 15 16 31 Brass 93.75 4,960 50,030 50,310 16 17 33 Copper 93.75 5,610 56,530 56,810 17 18 35 Platinum 93.75 6,300 63,430 63,710 18 19 37 White 93.75 7,030 70,730 71,010 19 20 39 Blood Red 93.75 7,800 78,430 78,710 20 Column Heading Definition of Formula Wand + 2 Cube Retail Cost Spell Level * Caster Level * Retail Base Cost Wand + 0 Cube Retail Cost Spell Level * Caster Level * Retail Base Cost / 2 Retail NPC Cost Per Charge Spell Level * Caster Level * 10 Retail NPC Cost Full Cube Spell Level * Caster Level * 10 * 10 Spell Points per Charge 1 Spell Point per Spell Level Empty Cube Base Creation Cost Wand + 2 Cube Creation Cost / 2 ( half for wand half for two cubes ) / 2 ( two cubes ) Retail Recharge Cost Retail NPC Cost Full Cube + NPC Cast Dweomerflow (280gp) - Craft a wand and get 5 fully charged cubes.
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Yeah its confusing, and I might add created a new term Retail! It use to be Market or Base Price.
Retail for a Wand + 2
Retail (or Market, or Base Price) = 750 × level of spell × level of casterCraft a Wand + 2
Craft Cost = 375 × level of spell × level of casterAlternatively you can also say- Craft a Wand + 2
Craft Cost = Base Price / 2Now i assume if i understand your table correctly we have Wand + 0 as being -
Wand+0: Retail (or Market, or Base Price) = 375 × level of spell × level of caster
Wand+0: Craft Cost = Base Price / 2.
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Now lets throw a curve ball…and talk Staffs.
Creating Staffs
To create a magic staff, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a staff or the pieces of the staff to be assembled.The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the staff—
375 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (281.25 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus one-half of the value of any other abilities (187.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster).
Staffs are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.
If desired, a spell can be placed into the staff at only half the normal cost, but then activating that particular spell costs 2 charges from the staff. The caster level of all spells in a staff must be the same, and no staff can have a caster level of less than 8th, even if all the spells in the staff are low-level spells.
The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material and XP component costs sufficient to activate the spell a maximum number of times (50 divided by the number of charges one use of the spell expends). This is in addition to the XP cost for making the staff itself. Material components are consumed when he begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a staff can be reused.) The act of working on the staff triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the staff’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
Crafting a staff requires one day for each 1,000 gp of the base price.
What cubes do we use for that? I assume the color of the highest level spell against the caster level which i assume would be uniform across all the spells in the staff? Not sure i can make that assumption, need to do a bit of research.
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@halfgiant said in Cubes:
What cubes do we use for that? I assume the color of the highest level spell against the caster level which i assume would be uniform across all the spells in the staff? Not sure i can make that assumption, need to do a bit of research.
This is where the variable cubes come in. Let me pull out an old 2e character sheet
Spell Level Color Low (1-3) Black & White Medium (4-6) Red & White High (7-9) Black & Red Good (10-12) Black & Gold Excellent (13-15) Red & Gold Exceptional (16-18) Gold & White Planar (19-20) Gold & Platinum Variable - Low (1-9) Chromatic Variable - High (10-18) Iridescent Chromatic -
@dwarf’s original plan had the following cubes. I Cannot find examples where
-are. but noted the spots existed.Class Lesser Medium Greater Mage Dark Grey Glowing Purple - Cleric - - - The Staff of Power used a
LesserandMediumMage cube.
The Staff of Curing used anAmberCleric cube, but I don’t know if that wasLesserorMedium. -
